Discussion:
debian github organization ?
(too old to reply)
Jérémy Lal
2015-04-16 13:45:34 UTC
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Hello,

i was wondering if debian had a github account as an organization, where
maintainers could be added.

This is a scary pandora box, though :)

Jérémy.
Jonas Smedegaard
2015-04-16 13:56:54 UTC
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Quoting Jérémy Lal (2015-04-16 15:45:34)
Post by Jérémy Lal
i was wondering if debian had a github account as an organization,
where maintainers could be added.
Wouldn't surprise me, but I don't know (not interested).
Post by Jérémy Lal
This is a scary pandora box, though :)
If you add that remark to appeace those disliking non-free services: It
doesn't work on me, and I doubt it works on others either.

If you mention because you dislike it yourself: Easier to ignore it!

Enjou the ride...


- Jonas
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Dimitri John Ledkov
2015-04-16 15:04:07 UTC
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I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)

Which is similar in spirit to ask.debian.net.

PS. Sorry for top reply from mobile phone.
Post by Jérémy Lal
Hello,
i was wondering if debian had a github account as an organization, where
maintainers could be added.
This is a scary pandora box, though :)
Jérémy.
Alessio Treglia
2015-04-16 15:09:33 UTC
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Post by Dimitri John Ledkov
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
Good one Dimitri!

I started to use Gitlab for serious work only recently, and well I love it.
So +1 from me, I volunteer to help out with that.

Cheers!
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Dmitry Yu Okunev
2015-04-16 15:15:07 UTC
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Post by Dimitri John Ledkov
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
I'm not a DD, but I'd suggest to consider "Gogs", too. It's pretty new
and unfinished, but potentially is much better than "GitLab", IMHO.

Best regards, Dmitry.
Alexander Alemayhu
2015-04-16 18:19:26 UTC
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Post by Dmitry Yu Okunev
I'm not a DD, but I'd suggest to consider "Gogs", too. It's pretty new
and unfinished, but potentially is much better than "GitLab", IMHO.
I'm not a DD either but +1 :) I tried it out awhile back from the try site[0]and
it just has a much better feel to it IMHO. Have you tried installing it?

[0]: https://try.gogs.io/

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Dmitry Yu Okunev
2015-04-16 19:05:23 UTC
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Post by Alexander Alemayhu
Post by Dmitry Yu Okunev
I'm not a DD, but I'd suggest to consider "Gogs", too. It's pretty new
and unfinished, but potentially is much better than "GitLab", IMHO.
I'm not a DD either but +1 :) I tried it out awhile back from the try site[0]and
it just has a much better feel to it IMHO. Have you tried installing it?
Yes, We are trying it in our University (NRNU MEPhI).

Example repository:
https://devel.mephi.ru/dyokunev/tasks

I can say, that "Gogs" is not production ready. A lot of tiny bugs (with
avatars etc), no "Pull request" support and so on. But it developing
very fast.

Gogs is much more GitHub-like than GitLab as for me, so it's much more
usual for GitHub users, IMHO.
Post by Alexander Alemayhu
[0]: https://try.gogs.io/
Best regards, Dmirty.
Mattia Rizzolo
2015-04-16 15:11:29 UTC
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Post by Jérémy Lal
i was wondering if debian had a github account as an organization, where
maintainers could be added.
there is: https://github.com/debian
Post by Jérémy Lal
This is a scary pandora box, though :)
indeed. it could be nice, but i'd rather avoid it.
Post by Jérémy Lal
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
yeah, me too. i love it.
i'd help to run it (i don't have so much experience running gitlab
(yes, i run an instance), but i definitely want to join a team setting
it up + keeping it running.
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mudongliang
2015-04-16 15:22:53 UTC
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Post by Mattia Rizzolo
Post by Jérémy Lal
i was wondering if debian had a github account as an organization, where
maintainers could be added.
there is: https://github.com/debian
Post by Jérémy Lal
This is a scary pandora box, though :)
indeed. it could be nice, but i'd rather avoid it.
Post by Jérémy Lal
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
yeah, me too. i love it.
i'd help to run it (i don't have so much experience running gitlab
(yes, i run an instance), but i definitely want to join a team setting
it up + keeping it running.
I like github very much ,too! And linux kernel have a display on github!
I really want to see Debian in the github! If this can be true , I will
follow it quickly!
But I know that debian does not manager source code by git !
How can it??
mudongliang
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Neil Williams
2015-04-16 18:31:23 UTC
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On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:11:29 +0200
Post by Mattia Rizzolo
Post by Jérémy Lal
i was wondering if debian had a github account as an organization,
where maintainers could be added.
there is: https://github.com/debian
I've already got a bunch of other stuff on github (some on Alioth too
but github is more reliable, easier to find related stuff and easier
for people outside Debian to fork and use to contribute) as well as
mirrors of my work stuff for Linaro. How do people (DD's) go about
getting invites to the Debian organisation on github? (Ping me off-list
if the potential number of enquirers would be unmanageable.)
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Andrew Shadura
2015-04-16 17:19:58 UTC
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Post by Dimitri John Ledkov
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
Why Gitlab when there's Kallithea? :)
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Sven Bartscher
2015-04-16 17:37:55 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 09:04:07 -0600
Post by Dimitri John Ledkov
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
I don't a reason to have gitlab/github/someother git stuff for debian,
since we already have alioth.
Maybe someone can enlighten me.

Regards
Sven
Russell Stuart
2015-04-17 00:54:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Bartscher
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 09:04:07 -0600
Post by Dimitri John Ledkov
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
I don't a reason to have gitlab/github/someother git stuff for debian,
since we already have alioth.
Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Probably not. UI's are a personal thing and if you've looked at the
others and still the UI provided by FusionForge, that's unlikely to
change.

But do acknowledge that makes you unusual. Github has all but
annihilated SourceForge in the hosting market place, and the stand out
change is it's UI. That is in spite of SourceForge's impressive mirror
network and SourceForge being VCS agnostic. So it's not surprising some
DD's want to move away from the FusionForge UI.

I'm on SourceForge now. [0] I'd prefer to be on Debian's
infrastructure of course, but Alioth is so poorly maintained it was
unusable for me [1].

Of the suggestions so far only Kallithea is VCS agnostic, but Kallithea
only supports source code hosting - no Ticketing (eg bug tracking), no
web project web page, no release hosting (binaries). Maybe that's an
advantage for Debian projects because it forces you to use Debian's
existing infrastructure for everything else, but for me it makes it a
no-go.

Gogs looks to be similar, but is unstable. Gitlab is git only and
doesn't support releases.

SourceForge's Apollo is an open source project supporting all those
features plus a heap more, but the UI is not "code centric" like the
others - it feels more like FusionForge. That said, unlike FusionForge
modern work flows (forking, pull requests and the like) - it's just they
aren't a prominent in the UI.



[0] http://sourceforge.net/u/rstuart/

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/05/msg00463.html

That triggered this response, but it read like someone in denial
rather than acknowledging the problem:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/06/msg00435.html

Acknowledging the problem is always the first step in fixing it,
and I think it's significant the number of open bugs has gone up by
20% since then.
Iustin Pop
2015-04-17 01:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russell Stuart
Github has all but
annihilated SourceForge in the hosting market place, and the stand out
change is it's UI. That is in spite of SourceForge's impressive mirror
network and SourceForge being VCS agnostic.
I think the VCS agnosticism is actually detrimental in this context.
It's much easier for the user when every repo is using the same VCS.
And consistency makes it very easy, for example, to refer to commits
across projects, to standardise pull/clone workflows, etc.

regards,
iustin
Russ Allbery
2015-04-17 02:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iustin Pop
I think the VCS agnosticism is actually detrimental in this context.
It's much easier for the user when every repo is using the same VCS.
And consistency makes it very easy, for example, to refer to commits
across projects, to standardise pull/clone workflows, etc.
+1. VCS agnosticism means you waste a bunch of time making each new
feature work with every supported VCS, which can include trying to
shoehorn pretty foreign workflows into the model of some other VCS.
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Russ Allbery
2015-04-17 06:13:01 UTC
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Thankfully, git is by far the best VCS on the market and the vast
majority of people seem to agree. But imagine the outcry if ten years
ago Sourceforge had said "our VCS is svn and we don't support anything
else".
Er, they did, didn't they? I could have sworn that they only supported
CVS initially, and then only added Subversion, and getting Git support
took forever.

Launchpad, similarly, is probably suffering a lot from the decision to
only support bzr. (It suffers from some other things as well, such as
asset licensing and how difficult it is to stand up your own, but I think
the VCS is a major problem right now.)

So you're of course right -- there's a tradeoff.

However, I still stand by the decision to only support a single VCS, at
least when you start, because you can move a lot faster and implement a
lot more functionality that people care a great deal about. If you can
find the right VCS to use that 90% of people are content with (and I think
Sourceforge started there), I think your resources are much better put
into adding other features than adding more VCS support.

I have no interest in ever using bzr again, but I strongly suspect
Launchpad got a lot farther and does a lot more because the choice was
made to only support bzr. Now, of course, they need to switch to Git, or
at least support it, and that's going to be a ton of work, but I suspect
the order in which they did that made for a better system in the long run
than if they'd tried to support both bzar and Git (and Mercurial and the
other ones that were looking viable) at the start.
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Russell Stuart
2015-04-17 07:03:30 UTC
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First a Mel Cupa. I called the SourceForge system Apollo. It's actual
name is Apache Allura. Brain fart.
Post by Russ Allbery
Er, they did, didn't they? I could have sworn that they only supported
CVS initially, and then only added Subversion, and getting Git support
took forever.
Pretty much. Of course that may have something do with the respective
VCS being born in that order. For comparison in the speed of addition,
GutHub opened for business in April 2008. SourceForge added support for
git in March 2009.
Post by Russ Allbery
However, I still stand by the decision to only support a single VCS, at
least when you start, because you can move a lot faster and implement a
lot more functionality that people care a great deal about.
Woo, slow down there. Here I was thinking the discussion was about
spinning up a server using exist software. Has the discussion moved to
writing our own or even modifying something to suit Debian's needs? If
so, is that justified by history? Was there a period when not only was
Alioth's bug queue serviced, but we actually did some heavy lifting? If
not than any discussion of "adding functionality" is probably fanciful.

In any case using an existing project and contributing any changes
upstream sounds like a much better plan to me - particularly if the
project is packaged in Debian. They means we can just install auto
upgrades to keep it secure.

As for one DVCS to rule the world - that also sounds like a bit of a
stretch. If we are going to do that, can we also settle on a preferred
computer language and force everyone to use a single debian packaging
method? It would make life sooo much easier.
Russ Allbery
2015-04-17 07:14:11 UTC
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Post by Russell Stuart
Post by Russ Allbery
However, I still stand by the decision to only support a single VCS, at
least when you start, because you can move a lot faster and implement a
lot more functionality that people care a great deal about.
Woo, slow down there. Here I was thinking the discussion was about
spinning up a server using exist software. Has the discussion moved to
writing our own or even modifying something to suit Debian's needs?
No. My comment was in the context of a comparison between Sourceforge and
GitHub, and I was just making the point that I think this was a wise
decision on GitHub's part. It was also in the context of a couple of
other packages that are possible contenders for a revision control
management framework, both of which have made the same choice, also (IMO)
wisely.
Post by Russell Stuart
As for one DVCS to rule the world - that also sounds like a bit of a
stretch.
While we're pondering whether dropping support for older VCSes is a bit of
a stretch, the broader software community is just shrugging and using
GitHub. If the goal is to produce a viable free software alternative to
GitHub, supporting Subversion or bzr or Mercurial would be nowhere on my
list of requirements.

Obviously, supporting a choice of DVCSes would be great, all other things
being equal. But given the resources available for a free software
project, all else is not going to be equal, and there are *lots* of other
features that are a much higher priority for more developers than making
the diminishing minority of people who don't use Git more comfortable.
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Dimitri John Ledkov
2015-04-17 07:57:01 UTC
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On 16 Apr 2015 12:05 pm, "Sven Bartscher" <
Post by Sven Bartscher
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 09:04:07 -0600
Post by Dimitri John Ledkov
I'd rather see gitlab.debian.net :)
I don't a reason to have gitlab/github/someother git stuff for debian,
since we already have alioth.
Maybe someone can enlighten me.
In no particular order:
* merge proposals / code review. Mailing lists suck for this. And these
webby tools usually support email based workflow as well (to some degree)
* no approval required to create/fork projects, teams, source trees (there
are namespaces)
* syntax highlighted or rendered code browsing
* familiar user interface / concepts for most developers
* no arbitrary hooks, no direct file access to repositories, no repository
maintainance for repository owner. (These are all good things)
* restful API triggers to update things instead

We are at the tipping point were more of active developers used git and
e.g. github; than svn and source forge monsters.

My first VCS was git & repo.cz later quickly gitorious & github.

Regards,

Dimitri.

Paul Wise
2015-04-16 16:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jérémy Lal
i was wondering if debian had a github account as an organization, where
maintainers could be added.
It would probably better to use free tools instead?

http://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html
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